With which I agree. Thus, on the one hand, the criterion may do no more than cast a shadow of doubt on certain traditions. I think he shaped the memories he’d collected. Scholar Andrei Orlov comments, “The tradition of the messianic pair, in which each agent has distinctive eschatological roles and functions, is a recurrent motif in Jewish lore. It is often used as a shorthand for the criterion of double dissimilarity. Embarrassment: S is awkward or counter-productive for the persons who serve as the source of information for S. Dissimilarity: S is unlike antecedent Jewish thought-forms and/or unlike subsequent Christian thought-forms. The criterion of embarrassment is really just a special version of the criterion of dissimilarity (since ’embarrassing’ things almost necessarily entail a conflict of said thing with pre-existing Jewish cultural beliefs). South Carolina, where part of my family has moved, is supposedly full of Diamondback Rattlers. No. Obviously, the earliest disciples followed Jesus precisely because they appreciated the things that he said and did. According to Paul’s writings, the tradition that Jesus was equal to God and that he existed with God before he became a man, was around much earlier that the end of the first century. But wait, there is a fourth Gospel and it will surely tell us who was right! Because you don’t care about history. They must’ve been. So they had to frame this in some way that would fit the story they were beginning to tell. Please click REGISTER on top bar. For example, what I just said would make perfect sense of the ‘messianic secret’ motif. Paul clearly states his belief In the preexistence of Christ in God form, in his letter to the Philippians. Bart, do you recognize the validity of the principle of double similarity, that as far as I know, NT Wright is an exponent of? But where to find the appropriate text? Do you have a scripture reference for “et tu Brute?” No? If a pathological liar tells you he ate an egg sandwich for breakfast, would you believe him? No, I don’t. And you just keep denying the obvious. The criterion is usually associated with Bultmann’s students who wanted to move beyond his skepticism about the historical Jesus. It is a question of whether of whether it is at odds with what Christians would want to say. Who doubts. The criterion of dissimilarity was introduced by Ernst Käsemann, who in 1953 started the second quest for the historical Jesus. No, dissimilarity as I’m using it is not related to the question of whether a passage is at odds with contemporary Judaism. What was the cult to do? I was recently in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. The truly problematic passage is the one that has Jesus crying out in agony on the cross, asking God why he’s been forsaken. For all of these reasons, we must be skeptical of applications of the criterion of embarrassment in New Testament studies. Even more troublesome, though, is that such arguments fail as a matter of principle. Richard Carrier has a whole book arguing that Christianity arose out of metaphysical beliefs, visions, readings of Old Testament scripture, and not the observable life of a man on earth. Nice point, though. Because I was making a joke. When we speak of the canonical gospels, perhaps it’s more accurate to say that what we have today, are not the gospels of the 1st century, but the gospels of the 2nd century? say? And they would want those people to know Jesus despaired on the cross.
People invented Attis, and he is said to have castrated himself. They certainly would have told stories about him that included such things. Imagine a patriarchal society inventing that!) And guess what? We know that the final Jesus words are a fabrication, and we also know the source. Yup. There were people there to report his words–if any–and garble them. We have this story because Jesus went to John for baptism. 14:33b-36, e.g.) It is often used as a shorthand for the criterion of double dissimilarity. We seem to have a choice in last words. how does a battered person have the ability to do a loud shout ? One such critic writes: "The problem of the Criterion of Double Dissimilarity is that the more we know about early Jewish traditions and the more we know about early Christian post-Easter traditions, the less space there is for a reconstruction of the authentic sayings of Jesus, as by definition they have to differ from early Jewish and early Christian traditions. Perhaps the criterion can be clarified by providing a couple of brief examples of where it might work. That seems in keeping with this not being some extraordinary event, from Rome’s perspective. Hard Evidence that the Book of Acts was Written by an Eyewitness? I have given two examples in which the criterion applies, but I can think of a number of instances in which it fails. The criterion of dissimilarity (also called criterion of discontinuity) is used in Biblical criticism to determine if a statement attributed to Jesus may be authentic. I read “The History of the Synoptic Tradition.” I this a test? The "criterion of dissimilarity", it seems to me, can only demonstrate that the story of Jesus, as passed down to us, includes details that were probably embarrassing to the early Church. Ah, I’m afraid that’s outside of my bailiwick! Thomas Brodie, Richard Carrier, John Dominic Crossan, Randal Helms, Dennis MacDonald Robert M. Price and others all find that the gospels are pervasively mythical – even those who think that beneath these myths a historical Jesus is somehow hidden. *On the Sea of Galilee being an invention, see Dennis R. MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, chapter 7. John the Baptist was definitely historical and he made it in the Gospels. who is there to hear the words of jesus?
Since April 2012, the blog has raised over $700,000 for charity. For example a prophecy doesn’t come true.
The whole point of the exercise is to remind people what happens if you cause trouble. Who would have transmitted the words to posterity? So the approach is different. Jesus is completely silent, because he is a literary invention. That means we can say almost nothing about changes during this time.
I should have included a reference with my earlier comment on criterion criticism. People invented scientology, and look what a crock that religion is!! In my experience of thinking about various epistemological principles I have come to the conclusion that most principles of inference are in the same position: there’s a long list of exception clauses that go with them. He couldn’t have done this were he anything other than a charismatic and compelling visionary in his own right. If the gospel of John (or any apocryphal gospel) records something also found in the synoptics, is that considered independent attestation? The others I mentioned are fantastic events that were viewable by thousands of people and yet are not documented anywhere in the ancient literature even though they would have been if they had happened (A worldwide darkness would have gotten people’s attention just as it would today). Light on Paradise. Think about it: everything the early Christians said must have been said for a reason (for conversion, to illustrate a moral or theological point, etc.). But he would have said something. Therefore, the Christ myth theory passes the criterion of embarrassment. say that the source of information was the sanhedrin, why trust the sanhedrin? It’s a highly complicated question. How many additions could we discover if we had access to what is now lost? Of the three, the first records Peter’s nonchalant response to Mark’s gospel, where “he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it.” But the third account gives an elaborate response by Peter, who after learning of the gospel’s composition through a revelation of the Spirit, not only gives it his full blessing, by “the work obtained the sanction of his authority for the purpose of being used in the churches.”. MOdern world? Drawing strength from that sense of continuity. There are lots of books out there, depending on what period of Christain history you’re interested in. What are the attestations, other than the synoptics, of Jesus’ association with John? Now it’s time for a little joke. Just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Sometimes stacked one on top of the other. But seriously, we had almost two and a half centuries, and three historical quests, of modern scholarship and none of the tools of textual criticism has withstood the test of time. Later Jewish materials are also cognizant of the concept of the two messiahs, one suffering and dying and the other victorious. Granted, it is much easier to imagine a historian living two thousand years later coming to a mistaken belief than it is to imagine Christians in the 30’s to 50’s CE being mistaken regarding something about Jesus that was verifiable to them. Don’t forget, when you join the “The Bart Ehrman Blog,” membership includes access to a very active discussions forum password secured for members only. No scripture reference. The reasons scholars have argued that nearly all the major changes were made int eh first couple of centuries are complicated, but pretty compelling. If you don’t belong yet, remember, The End is Near! My question involves the ending of the Gospel of John, is the author claiming to be a disciple and an eyewitness to the life of Jesus? That he’s drawing a parallel between him and past Jews who have faced persecution and death? It would make sense out of why the gospel writers seem to have had to invent so much material out of the Old Testament (they did not have abundant oral traditions and accounts like a historical Jesus would have left behind). My view is that John was independent of the other three. For example, when in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas the young Jesus raises kids from the dead or miraculously solves his father’s mistakes in the carpenter’s shop, these look like things drawn from later Christian imagination. He was becoming a myth while he was still alive. Any witness in a court of law will naturally … The rest of this post is for members only. But Luke did not care for that.
You are applying different standards of evidence to records from ancient history. Published originally in 1896, and reprinted in 1993 by Prometheus Books. As we have seen… The rest of this post is for members only. Please post respectful comments even when you have strong opinions. It seems to me that significant alterations were made in the first 150 years of when the gospels were first composed. So, it is Psalm 22:1 for Mark and Matthew. © Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()); The Bart Ehrman Blog | Hosted and Created by Artios Media, You need to be logged in to see this part of the content. Bart takes on two of the most gripping questions of human existence: where did the ideas of heaven and hell come from, and why do they endure? I’m sure the next generation will try again and create other tools, but they too will be found falling short of their claims. He could have said Abba, father.
In other words, a myth or fabrication. Jesus did not get to write his own story (possible he couldn’t have done so), but he was more than just some marionette that people manipulated after his death. The examples you give of John the Baptist and Paul would seem to fit the latter. Any way, I think it is often hard to legitimately use or at least is often misused. This is not for membership registration. Mainly because it is hard to know what is embarrassing or what choice is MORE embarrassing than another. But they’ve got a problem: as is well-known, the first gospel was written some forty years after Jesus died, and as demonstrated from other religious movements and from clues within the gospels themselves, it’d be foolish of us to naively believe everything we’re told. First four centuries?
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